New to Tribe. New to photography.

topic posted Fri, November 14, 2008 - 11:21 AM by  Steven
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Ok. I was at a show the other night and had a lot of fun shooting photos with my camera phone. They didn't look great, but it was really. I've wanted to get into shooting bands for a while, and it convinced me to take it up. I'll mostly be shooting indie and punk bands, plus some burlesque and circus stuff, in small clubs, bars, warehouses, etc. Environments rather hostile to quality photos.

I've got no gear. Suggestions? I don't want to spend over $800 on a dSLR. I would like the camera to be rather compact and quiet. Single lens. No flash. Easy operation. I'm more interested in a documentary style- don't know how much that matters when choosing gear.

A rather open ended question, I realize, but any help would be appreciated. Oh, and I like that there seems to be a pretty active conversation in this tribe, with many recent posts.

Thanks.
posted by:
Steven
SF Bay Area
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  • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

    Fri, November 14, 2008 - 12:11 PM
    Single lens, no flash in clubs?

    You're not going to get much that can do that for under $800. To be able to get decent photos without a flash in a club, you need a camera that has high ISO capabilities, coupled with a lens with a low f-stop.

    Unless you're willing to go with a non-DSLR 'all-in-one' type of camera, you're going to be spending closer to $1000 for a proper camera. I'd recommend something like the nikon d90, which you can find for about $900, and something like the 50mm 1.8 for about $100. This latest generation of dSLR's is really the first that offer good high ISO (1600+) capabilities with better noise characteristics.
    • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

      Fri, November 14, 2008 - 12:35 PM
      "You're not going to get much that can do that for under $800."

      Gotta disagree with ya, kc...

      Even the low-end Canon dSLRs do stalwart work in low-light (this since they share much of their guts with the higher-end prosumer models). You can pick up an brand-new X-series camera body for around $500. Or you can step up in build quality and get a manufacturer refurbed 30D for about the same price. Toss on a brand new Canon nifty 50mm 1.8 and you've got one of the best low-light rigs possible and well under $800. You may not be packing a fast red-line zoom, but you can compensate for that by working the floor for your shot. Plus you get the low-profile sleekness of a set-up that can be stealthily tucked under a coat.

      Good stuff. And affordable.
      • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

        Sat, November 15, 2008 - 11:08 PM

        Brad said (in part):
        > ... You can pick up an brand-new X-series camera body for around $500 ...
        > ... Or ... get a ... refurbed 30D for about the same price.

        I've heard some really good things about the older Rebel (XT? The 350D, anyhow...) as a low-light machine.

        Has anyone done a head-to-head in low light, with the 350D vs. the newer bodies that
        have been more subject to the past few years' "Megapixel Madness"?

        A refurb 350D might be a good choice, and increase his budget for decent glass...


        - Steve
  • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

    Fri, November 14, 2008 - 12:36 PM
    Hi Steven,

    You can do this for around $500 or less, by using a Canon EOS Rebel XS body, to which you add the "Nifty Fifty" 50mm f/1.8 lens. That will give you modest low-light capability for clubs. Nothing works like a fast lens, even with high-ISO, like ISO 1600. It might be possible to get the Rebel XS and an even faster 50mm f/1.4 for close to $800, by shopping around a little.

    There's also a complete kit available, with two zooms, for about $630:
    www.amazon.com/exec/obido...veda8765-20

    Add to this the $80 "Nifty Fifty," you have a complete system with dollars to spend, for under $800.

    The "Nifty Fifty" is tack sharp, in part because of the cropping factor (the Rebel XS uses less of the lens than would be allowed for a full-frame digital or film 35mm SLR camera); same for the 50 mm f/1.4 lens. You may find the view a little too tight from a smaller club though. For the smaller space, you can use add a 35mm f/2 prime lens, which is equivalent to a 56mm view. This lens is not so expensive, but more than the "Nifty Fifty."

    As time goes on, for the larger spaces, you might want to add faster glass, for this setup. If you're working at a distance, and you or need more reach in a low-light environment like a warehouse, the 135mm f/2L will serve extremely well. On the Rebel XS, which has a 1.6X cropping factor, the 135mm lens will function as a 216mm prime lens, but without optical loss ... it'll still have wicked-fast f/2 aperture. The can be very nice for stage views, at a distance.

    Hope this is useful information for you.

    Blessings and Light,
    Michael
    • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

      Fri, November 14, 2008 - 12:46 PM
      hangs head in shame for being 1 minute later than The Brad Dosland....
      • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

        Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:28 PM
        Heh heh... I was actually rushing my response 'cuz I thought you might snake me, Michael. Little did I know how close it was!

        But you reminded me of my second favorite bargain low-light lens... The Canon 135mm 2.8 (dubbed the soft-focus, due to a senseless feature that can thankfully be turned off and forgotten). This relatively sharp prime is lightweight and affordable (less than $300 new www.adorama.com/CA13528AFU.html and usually half that price on Ebay). Add that to your $500 body and your nifty fifty and you've got a fast telephoto kit for less than $800. Heck, you've got enough change to buy a couple of back-up batteries on Ebay and a nice roomy CF card to park your image files.
        • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

          Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:33 PM
          Hee hee, must be the net delay from Georgtown, MA, where I am now ....
          • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

            Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:47 PM
            Damn. Thank you guys. I'd done a little research, and it was right in line with you are recommending. Makes it a bit easier to make decisions. Not so good at that. Hpoing that I can find some good deals during the Holiday season, as well as on the web. Thanks again.
            • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

              Fri, November 14, 2008 - 2:00 PM
              thanks guys. A friend just asked me what to buy, and I told her to get a Rebel.
              • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                Mon, November 17, 2008 - 2:42 PM
                I guess maybe I don't agree, because the results I'm getting with some of the newer cams (Nikon D90 vs D200) with a 50mm 1.8 lens are rather dramatic.

                Previously club/low-light photography was a trade off - faster ISO, but almost unacceptable noise (I use Noise Ninja to reduce it to tolerable levels), loss in detail, etc.

                The D90 vs D200 - well, the D90 is hands down better. I can crank the ISO up and the noise is less at 3200 on the D90 than it was at 800 on the D200. The photos are sharper since I can use faster shutter speeds and the AF seems to be much better - the D200 would often 'search' for focus, the D90 nails it almost every time.

                I'm also of the mind of 'get the right thing the first time'. Get a lower performance camera and a high performance lens (the price difference on a 1.8 vs. a 1.4 is considerable) or vice versa? The higher performance camera with a lower performance lens gives you almost the same results as going vice versa, however when you're ready you can always update the lens getting even better performance - with the other option you're stuck - you can't get any better.

                That's my opinion - obviously everyone should do their research and talk to several people to make sure they're aware of all the benefits/detriments.
                • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                  Mon, November 17, 2008 - 2:47 PM
                  That's cool, KC...

                  And that's what makes Tribe great: Different opinions gives folks a breadth of information.

                  Stick to your guns and keep shooting!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                    Mon, November 17, 2008 - 4:13 PM
                    I also wanted to note that I've not had a ton of experience with newer Canon DSLR's, but I didn't think their low-light performance was any better than the D200.

                    The D90, as I said, was a *noticeable* step up.

                    www.dxomark.com seems to quantify my subjective opinions - but, as always, diff'rent strokes and all that!
                    • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                      Mon, November 17, 2008 - 4:17 PM
                      Um, ok, I may be rambling...but don't let my observations let you think that you can't do low-light photography with the Canon 350/400/450 or one of the Nikons - D80, D200, etc. You CAN, it's just not as easy.

                      I *do* have a strong opinion on the 30D's low light performance - it sucks. A friend has one and it was awful compared to even my D200. I only have his as a comparison, though, so maybe others have a different experience.
                      • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                        Mon, November 17, 2008 - 5:10 PM
                        You can also check www.popphoto.com . Their tests so far revealed the new generation Nikons to be the low-light winners (D90, D300, D700, D3). So, if that's your criteria- that's where I'd go.
                        • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                          Tue, November 18, 2008 - 9:42 PM

                          > ... the new generation Nikons to be the low-light winners
                          > (D90, D300, D700, D3). So, if that's your criteria- that's where I'd go.

                          Yeah... but the budget is a REAL limiter here, as these are a bit above the entry-level models (and the entry-level price!) .
                          Even the lowest-end one of these, the D90, is over $900 body-only... Call in an even $1K with a 50/1.8 .

                          Still, it might be worth buying into the Nikon system with plans to move into a higher-end body later...


                          - Steve S.
                          • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                            Tue, November 18, 2008 - 10:06 PM
                            Get a D80 while you still can.
                            • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                              Wed, November 19, 2008 - 1:13 PM
                              I've read some reviews of the D80 and the XSti, and came to the conclusion that the bodies are fairly equal in terms of features and performance. One gets a plus here, but a minus there. The other gets a plus there, and a minus here. $800 is a solid ceiling on what I'm willing to shell out, knocking the D90 out of the running. Anyway, I went to a local store to handle each camera, and decided that I liked the feel of the Canon better. It was lighter weight, and smaller. The way that I naturally wanted to hold the Nikon put my thumb right on the shutter trigger. (Sorry, if that's not the right term.) Not so with the Canon. I think I know where I'm headed.

                              You all have shared valuable thoughts , and I thank you for that.
                              Cheers.
                              • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                                Wed, November 19, 2008 - 1:32 PM
                                Steven,

                                Please post some of your photos when you get your new Rebel XSi.

                                I hope you may enjoy the DSLR experience.

                                The Canon user interface is fairly capable, and used widely across numerous cameras in the line, with tweaks here and there for each tyoe of camera. I also know the electro-optical systems capability reasonably well. If I can ever answer a question for you though, please send me a PM. You may also find a Magic Lantern Book rather helpful. I've used the ones for my camera a lot. Here's the one for the XSi:
                                www.amazon.com/gp/product/1600594166

                                Blessings and Light,
                                M
                                • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                                  Wed, November 19, 2008 - 6:34 PM
                                  i shoot with an olympus e500 and have had great results. also they have been out long enough that the body is fairly cheap. i have several lenses i use, but the one i use most is the f2 50mm macro lens. whatever camera you choose, have fun with it and learn it's capabilities.
                                  • Re: New to Tribe. New to photography.

                                    Wed, November 19, 2008 - 8:38 PM
                                    Speaking of Olympus.. while the new E-520 can be a bit "noiser" in JPEG mode at high ISOs, it performs exceptionally well in RAW and it has built-in image stabilization that should add more for low-light handheld shooting, and it's reasonably inexpensive.

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